BRake Issues

mistergadget

mistergadget

RaceTested 11 Second Club
As many of you know I installed a set of TCE big brakes in June

They were great great at first, but I had the common "pulsing" issues with Q pads.

MY first set of rotors bit the dust a couple weeks back and my drilled rotors had cracks around the holes on both sides.

Those came off and I replaced them with plain rotors (no slots or holes) and put in a set of E pads.

The e pads felt great for a couple blocks and then started pulsing really really badly. As bad or worse as driving on the cracked rotors. They also turned the wheels totally black in about 30 miles of driving. And made a terrible terrible noise at low speeds. I thought I could be badass enough to run mean pads on the street but I just couldnt stand it.

I put my beat up "Q" pads back in and the brakes now arent noisy but still pulse some.

I feel like my luck with brakes is sucking really bad. I dont want to get another set of new Q pads since i think they will just leave deposits and make the brakes pulse badly again, but these are a little too beat up to run for nay length of time.

Has anybody used the T pads as a street pad?

Not a dig against todd of my TCE brakes in any way, his srevice and advice has been top notch all the way, just looking for some suggestions or advice from others who are running this kit.

Or should a just buy another set of Q pads and have the rotors turned later?
 
I hope Todd sees this thread. I want to know why this is happening! I'm on my third set of rotors. The J pads would destroy a set in a weekend track event. Like you, every time I installed a new set of zinced rotors I would get the pulsation. I would then go to the track and take out the q pads and install the J pads. In a session the pulsation would be gone. After the track event I would put the q pads back in on the rotors that had lost .100" of thickness. I would drive around without any pulsation until I got ready for another track event and installed a new set of rotors. Then back the pulsation would come. This last time I ordered slotted rotors without zinc plating since Todd thought that the zinc was the cause. I'm sorry to say it made no difference. These may have pulsated more than the other two sets or rotors! I am still running my first set of q pads and at 30,000 miles they are still 3/4ths of the brand new thickness. I took the rotors off and had them turned and the pulsation has not returned. I have the e pads in now (I did a track event last weekend and have another this weekend). The e pads make way to much noise for everyday use. The E's seemed to work as good at the track as the J pads did but my rotors still look brand new even after three sessions. I'm glad so now i will not have to buy rotors every time I do a track event. Nathan had the same problem with pulsation when he bought the first TCE kit. He took the rotors off and turned them and as far as I know his problems went away for good. Why should we have turn brand new rotors?


Jerry
 
i dont like having to turn my new rotors, but it seems like the pads aren't to blame at all, I wanted to break in the rotors with E pads so they wouldnt pulse, but they got even worse that way.

Maybe there is a problem from wilwood in the machining of these rotors?

Edit: my new rotors aren't zinc coated either.
 
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Just 2 cents

My little Bro (Rob) who is my master mechanic and I were reading this as both of us want to upgrade to a better system over the winter. It is his,mine and my wife's (she is in the auto industry) belief that a lot of automotive products are most often made by the lowest bidder due to cost factoring by the auto companies themselves. Thus the product (rotors)end up second rate and / or of poor materials. My Bro works at a Mitsubishi shop now and a Volvo/BMW shop before that and he said many times it was/is fairly common practice to machine brand new rotors for what some consider higher end cars. Rob said it was just a little insurance to get rid of the possibility of any pulsating causing poor performance and / or pissed of customers .

:sfca: Sorry for the long post and I know I didn't fix your problems but maybe my 3 cents explains a little that you already knew LOL
 
The fit of the rotors as well as the materials, construction, and design all appear to be top notch. it just seems like the final machined finish isn't what it should be. Maybe they are machined fine and can just never be bolted to the hat perfectly flat? Or maybe they need to be mounted on a hat to be properly machined before shipping? It shouldnt be neccesary but there has to be some recurring issue in their final machining that causes this.
 
Do you do any kind of racing? Auto x of Open Track?

I have the same issue with new rotors. You get the pulsation in the pedal but after an Auto X and some beating on the brakes its gone and doesn't come back. Except when you swap rotors again.

It sounds like your not putting enough heat into the them when your breaking them in.

I went with new rotors (after running Js) and D pads this time. I haven't swapped pads since the D's work great at the Auto X and on the street although they do make noise sometimes. I had some pulsation at first and after 1 auto x of beating on the brakes good it was gone.

I don't think your breaking the pads in good enough. They really need to be BEAT on.
 
I beat on my Q's untill they go completely away when I first put in new rotors but the pulsation stays! I'm sure you are correct though since the racing pads get rid of it.
I have not tried the D's but the E's make way to much noise for me to leave them in for every day use.

Jerry
 
I boiled the fluid several times breaking the pads in to the rotor. I'm using a valvoline fluid with a boiling temp of 550 or so and it takes me 3-4 stops in a row from 120 up. I don't think i should have to beat on anything that bad to break it in. I think beating on my first rotors that hard is what caused the cracking.
 
Jerry, you might want to try cryo-treating a fresh set of rotors and breaking them in on a non-ceramic pad. Then put the Q's on once you've bedded a set of pads already. I'd also skip the zinc coating since it's going to get rubbed off on swept area anyway.
 
Hi guys, passing though so I'll toss out what I can. Again.

The use of the E pads is common to the Wilwood 'performance' kits and while I agree they make too much noise for the street it's what they suggest as well.

Jerry, if you feel the E pad on the track offer as much stop as the J then it proves my point that you are just not getting these brakes as hot as you think you are. THATS why you keep chewing up rotors with the J pads in. We have now proved what I and WW have both suggested was the problem with this rapid wear rate. Bottom line there is you just don't need J pads for your use. The D pads used to be their 'performance pad' for street kits but again they will make noise.

Mike, the Q pads do require a high heat curing to cure the binders in the ceramic compounds. This does not mean you need to 'beat on them' really just get them really hot! As I've shown before; the new rotors are blue when I'm done running them in locally on a car. I mean REALLY blue, with high amounts of smoke off the pad when pulling it down from about 60. I can do all of this on the side roads around the shop, not on a track. Beating being a relaive term to describe this.

The rotors are standard Coleman parts, custom made to my bolts and size specs, stress relieved, and carefully bolted up after a quick sanding of the ridges on the machine area to assure you of a flat surface. Bolts torqued cross pattern to 21lbs. I can tell you that the issue is simply NOT the rotor. Without going into exacting detail these are the very same rotors used by a number of 'larger builders'...they just lead you to believe that they make their own.

I certainly want you all to be able to use these brakes to your satisfaction both on the street as well as on the track. You may want to look at Hawk HPS or HP+ compounds. Both of these can be had for the caliper by way of the HB101 part number. The standard pad will have the cotter pin tit in it for those of you with the SLIII caliper where those with the BSL parts will need to do a quick cut and grind to fit it due to the single bridge bolts. You might ask if they will offer it that way, but if not it's easy to do. (end mill works great if you have one too!)

The replacement of rotors drilled does not surprise me at all. I do not, repeat; do not suggest that folks do drilled rotors. Especially on a heavy vehicle and one that sees track use. But....people still want them and business is business. I changed out a set of drilled on an SRT4 last week for the very same reason- too many track days. And if you were at Lfest and looked at that decked out Mustang with the Brembos...you sure would not have taken it for a spin. Those are an accident waiting to happen!
 
Just a few more thoughts on this issue.

First Todd, I ran the E pads this weekend at a track event and they worked fine. They do require much more pedal pressure than the J pads do but they worked fine and my rotors still look like new. Thanks for your help in this matter.


I still feel there is a problem with the Q pads and the rotors though (not your fault Todd). It may be something we are all doing wrong but everyone I know that has used the Q pad has had the same pulsation problem. After the track event I installed the Q pads back in and drove home from the event about 100 miles. This morning on the way to work the brakes feel fine and there is NO pulsation. This is the way it always happens for me. Run the race pads and it cleans the uneven Q pad deposits off the rotors. Then I install the Q's back in after the track event and no more problems until I get new rotors (looks like I will not be doing that very often any more). My son runs the hawk HPS and I may try them next.

The reason I want to find an answer for this problem is because I keep telling people about this brake kit and then they have this problem and I feel responsible. Maybe we need to find another street pad to run like the hawks. A new friend I met at the track will be calling you about getting the kit since he fried his brakes at the SVTOA event at TWS weekend before last. His name is Rudy Garcia and I gave him your contact info.



Jerry
 
I have a set of used HP+ pads that I used in my BSIII calipers for about 500 miles and 1 Auto X. There is at least 90% of the pad left.

If someone wants to try them I'll sell them for 50 bucks. I couldn't deal with the noise on the street.
 
Guys, I just received the rotors and pads for my kit a few days ago. I don't think the problem is the machining of the rotor or the Q pads, I think it's just that the two aren't compatible with each other. Raybestos specifies a non directional finish for use with their Quietstop pad (the Q), and the rotors don't have that as delivered. They are cut on a lathe at what appears to be a fast feed rate. This is probably fine and dandy with an aggressive pad on the track, but with a street pad it doesn't seem to work. I know if I put that finish on a customer's rotors with a basic Raybestos pad it would chatter and make noise. However, if I slow down the feed rate of the lathe and leave a smoother finish then crosshatch it with a surface conditioning disc in a drill it will be smooth. I am going to crosshatch mine before I install them and see what happens.

FWIW, you should never have to turn a new rotor. Every supplier I use says that if a rotor isn't true when it comes out of the box it should be returned for warranty. I haven't returned a rotor yet because it wasn't ready to go out of the box.
 
Now that's some good info.

I've never considered this is or could be the root cause of the problem. I do know that many, many people run the Q pad with no problem however.

We may well find that the best solution to this on the Lite is that we run the
D or E pad for street use and/or offer the Hawk as an alternative to the Q.

To add to the above comment this would or could be the reason for the Q pad working out fine after some hard runs by the J for example where surface cutting by the pad has 'cleaned' the rotor to a more shiny finish.

I'll dig deeper into it and see what I find.

The added leg for the E pads does not surprise me as the bite of the pad is less, thus to get the same rotor torque you'd need either more leg or a larger dia rotor. But the good news is that the E seems to hold up much better to Jerry's needs and that's very nice to hear.
 
Guys,

I'd like some more info here please.

Spoke with Wilwood (again) on the Q pads and they feel the Q is still the best all around pad they offer for street use. However they may think that the truck is just too heavy and taxed beyond the level of the pad for a supplied pad in my kit. They are suggesting or thinking I'm better off with supplying the E pad for the temp range and use of this product. Granted, more noise and dust, but if not happy with that then the customer would be free to seek out alternatives. (and for some the Q pad will not be it)

They reference the problems with Greenstuff pads as being similar- too much heat and pad transfer of 'splotchy' rotors or bumps on it. Same as reported by those who over cook the 'stuff pads.

Honestly, I just don't know. This is nearly the only kit which has had this much issue with them. They and I both ship the Q pads in nearly all kits. I admit to a few other questions over the past few years, but it's maybe three complaints total? Yet on this truck the comments have been from probably 80% or so. And I think collectively we've tried about every cure we can think of~!

They would like to see a freshly run in rotor on Q pads of you have one and get me a pic of it.

They'd also like to know the exact source of the comment on the Quietstops from the post above. Was there reference on a web page, or in a new pad box of 'street' pads or what? WW has gone away from ground rotors on nearly all their parts now for the reason of greater problem with ground and pad transfer over conventional turned rotors.

Keep those cards and letters coming...
 
I believe that is stated in the directions that come with the pads, but I'm not sure. I looked on the Raybestos website for info and couldn't find anything there that blatantly stated anything about finish requirements. I did find this on another site while I was looking though:


ROTOR FINISH
How smooth is smooth enough? Smooth enough not to cause pad chatter, noise and increased pedal effort. Turning a rotor too quickly on a lathe leaves grooves in the surface. The grooves are not parallel, but spiral inward towards the center because the lathe bits cut from the outside of the rotor toward the center. When these grooves make contact with the pads, they tend to grab and jerk the pads up and down, setting up vibrations that cause noise and may be felt through the pedal.

If you can feel the grooves with your fingernail, the rotor is probably too rough. Another test is to write your name on the rotor with a ball joint pen. If the ink breaks up into dots instead of a continuous line, the rotor is too rough. Smoother is always better because it affects the coefficient of friction, noise, pad seating, pad break-in and wear.

Too rough a finish on the rotors can also increase pedal effort because only the peaks between the grooves make direct contact with the pads (at least initially). As the brakes are used, the pads will eventually wear down the peaks and increase the area of contact. But this accelerates both rotor wear and pad wear. So again, smoother is better.

As a rule, most new OEM and quality aftermarket rotors have a finish somewhere between 30 and 60 microinches RA (roughness average) with many falling in the 40 to 50 RA range. Some say a rotor finish of 80 microinches or less is good enough for most vehicles. Others say 60 microinches is the magic number, or 50 microinches or less if the vehicle is especially sensitive to rotor finish.

The finish is affected most by the crossfeed rate of the lathe, and to a lesser extent by the depth of the cut. Most experts say the best finish is achieved by taking off the least amount of metal as possible. Not only does this extend rotor life, but it also reduces the amount of folded and torn metal on the surface of the rotor.

As a rule, the depth of a finish cut should be .002 to .008 inch. If the rotor is in bad shape, multiple cuts should be used: one or more rough cuts followed by a shallow final cut.

On bench lathes, a spindle speed of 100 to 150 rpm with a crossfeed rate of .002 inch to .005 inch per revolution should produce a smooth, high-quality rotor finish.

On bench lathes with adjustable spindle speeds, the spindle speed should be slowed down for larger rotors. One manufacturer suggests the following speeds: for 10-inch and smaller rotors, use 170 rpm; for 11- to 16-inch rotors, use 100 rpm; for 17-inch or larger rotors, use 60 rpm.

The type of tool bits used in a brake lathe also affect the surface finish. Round carbide bits generally produce a smoother finish than angular bits and allow a faster crossfeed rate to save time. Titanium bits with parallel, peripheral ground edges are considered premium bits for this type of work.

When turning composite rotors, be sure to support the rotor properly with large bell clamps or adapters to prevent flexing and chatter.
 
I'd like to see what's stated on some of the stock papers with the new pads. Obviously if it's different than what is in the re packged WW boxes that could be an issue.
 
I just checked my Q's and there isn't anything in the included literature about rotor finish. There is one sheet that is a warranty disclaimer and one that tells what the different compounds are for, but nothing about rotor finish. In the unlikely event that I do a brake job with QS pads in the near future I'll check the directions to see what they say. I use the QS pads pretty rarely because most people don't want to spend the money to upgrade from the PG+.
 
Well at least you know you'll have something better than PG+...lol

I hope to ship out your hubs and calipers on Friday.
 
I checked stock today and we actually had 3 sets of QS pads in stock. None of them had any literature with them.

I went back to the Raybestos website today and found this in the members only section:

Rotors
If reused, the existing rotors must be machined. A coarse or rough surface finish will contribute to noise complaints and poor braking ability.


Once the rotor is done being machined, a non-directional surface finish procedure is recommended. Using a sanding block with 120-150 grit sandpaper, hold it against the brake surface of the rotor for approximately one minute per side. Work the sanding block up and down, while applying a medium amount of pressure. Before installing the rotor, clean it thoroughly. Wash it with soap and water and wipe dry with a clean shop towel.
 
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