Inputs for Red Top 30's

Diabolic

Diabolic

Active member
I'm looking for a little input of installing the red top 30's and still being Speed Density. Any Tweecer or Quarter Horse users in here that have the specs you are running for slope, injectors offset vs batt voltage and min PW? I have a friend wanting to go with 30's and I can't find any old tunes of mine that used 30's.20190106_191547.jpg
 
Nobody tunes these Speed Density computers anymore? Everyone just leaving them stock or going with Pimp or Holley?
 
Only person I can think of that may still have that information would be Mr. Stock. I lost all mine when my laptop was stolen.
 
Diabolic said:
Nobody tunes these Speed Density computers anymore? Everyone just leaving them stock or going with Pimp or Holley?
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With the options that have become available in the last several years there's really no point any more. The faster processing, more robust electronics, and build in wideband options for some of the aftermarket stuff makes dealing with the limitations of the stock processor an easy reason to upgrade.
 
oilwell1415 said:
With the options that have become available in the last several years there's really no point any more. The faster processing, more robust electronics, and build in wideband options for some of the aftermarket stuff makes dealing with the limitations of the stock processor an easy reason to upgrade.
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I've always datalogged my widebands using the Quarterhorse. It's nice that you don't need a stand alone trans controller either. I can see processor speed being a challenge but not under what you can do with 80# injectors. Even with a bigger cam than speed density needs, you can add a vacuum pump or just force idle into open loop and turn off adaptive learning. Honestly, you don't even need to run an oxygen sensor once it's dialed in. My 91 mustang, I run it in full time open loop. I don't even have any oxygen sensors in the exhaust and it's perfect.
 
I've been hesitating on replying because it's been something like 17 years since I walked away from EECTuners and TwEECers. However I do have files, let me see if I have an SD Lightning with 30's.

I would add, if I remember correctly you can use the low slope from a MAF Fox 30lb tune and dead time for Motorsport 30's should be on the internet, but I will look and see what I have.
 
Diabolic said:
I've always datalogged my widebands using the Quarterhorse. It's nice that you don't need a stand alone trans controller either. I can see processor speed being a challenge but not under what you can do with 80# injectors. Even with a bigger cam than speed density needs, you can add a vacuum pump or just force idle into open loop and turn off adaptive learning. Honestly, you don't even need to run an oxygen sensor once it's dialed in. My 91 mustang, I run it in full time open loop. I don't even have any oxygen sensors in the exhaust and it's perfect.
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But the Quarterhorse is no longer available. Pimp gives you trans control and is largely plug and play. Neither of those actually run off of the wideband. That's one good thing about the Holley is you just tell it what you want the a/f to be and it makes it happen. Tweecer is still out there, but then you are still using a 30 year old PCM. I've lost track of how many computers I've been through, but it's enough that it would have gone a long way towards paying for my Holley system. All I'm saying is that the Pimp system is $1400. It doesn't take long to get there with tuning software and a few computers, and that still likely won't be as good. If the Pimp had been available when I got my Holley I probably would have gone that route, but then I'd still have my original worn out wiring harness to deal with. I still haven't gotten the Holley installed on my truck, but based on the system I installed on my wife's car a while back I expect it will be far better than stock even on a basically stock truck.
 
Once I got my white truck, I felt crippled without the feedback you can get from the aftermarket ECU. The OEM ECU had issues, so I picked up a PxS for it. In my red truck, I converted to sequential, so it was a bit of extra effort. I left this one bank-to-bank, so the install was really nothing at all - move 3 wires in the harness. I added the Perfect Tuning gauge, fuel and oil pressure senders, and I have great insight into what the driveline is doing.

Now I just progressively change things and tweak the tune a little. 60 lb injectors, no sweat. Little roller cam, piece of cake. Surge tank fuel system, just a few changes due to more stable fuel pressure.

I had used a TwEECer RT with a datalogging wideband for years in the past. Capturing the mass air reading with the WBO2 feedback, I was able to tune it pretty decently. But comparing that to the flexibility and amount of data I can get from the PxS is like comparing reading glasses and a microscope.
 
FMOS Racing said:
Once I got my white truck, I felt crippled without the feedback you can get from the aftermarket ECU. The OEM ECU had issues, so I picked up a PxS for it. In my red truck, I converted to sequential, so it was a bit of extra effort. I left this one bank-to-bank, so the install was really nothing at all - move 3 wires in the harness. I added the Perfect Tuning gauge, fuel and oil pressure senders, and I have great insight into what the driveline is doing.

Now I just progressively change things and tweak the tune a little. 60 lb injectors, no sweat. Little roller cam, piece of cake. Surge tank fuel system, just a few changes due to more stable fuel pressure.

I had used a TwEECer RT with a datalogging wideband for years in the past. Capturing the mass air reading with the WBO2 feedback, I was able to tune it pretty decently. But comparing that to the flexibility and amount of data I can get from the PxS is like comparing reading glasses and a microscope.
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Slight thread derailment incoming. What is involved in the conversion to sequential? My Holley system does not seem to have a batch fire option for TFI systems, but my truck is batch fire. I'm suspecting on a V8 truck it's a simple matter of swapping to either a sequential distributor or the Holley Dual Sync system. I don't have either option. I suspect I'm looking at either cutting the inductor wheel in the distributor to have a thinner section on #1 or I have to find another 6 cylinder engine with sequential injection and swap the inductor wheel from it into mine. I would prefer to just keep it batch fire, but it doesn't look like Holley will let me do that without going to a different ignition system.
 
When referring to batch fire or sequential we are referring to fueling not spark. Stock the ecu fires all 4 injectors on a bank at the same time. sequential is each cylinder individually. There is no desire to go back to batch. The only change for pimp to go sequential is injector wiring and a couple setting. Your holley is sequential and the wiring harness is matched. Your truck will no longer be batch fire once the holley is installed.
 
oilwell1415 said:
Slight thread derailment incoming. What is involved in the conversion to sequential? My Holley system does not seem to have a batch fire option for TFI systems, but my truck is batch fire. I'm suspecting on a V8 truck it's a simple matter of swapping to either a sequential distributor or the Holley Dual Sync system. I don't have either option. I suspect I'm looking at either cutting the inductor wheel in the distributor to have a thinner section on #1 or I have to find another 6 cylinder engine with sequential injection and swap the inductor wheel from it into mine. I would prefer to just keep it batch fire, but it doesn't look like Holley will let me do that without going to a different ignition system.
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I wonder if you simply choose TFI in the Holley and just repin the injector harness? If it has the TFI option then it sounds like you do not have to do anything special on the ignition side.
 
FlatOut said:
When referring to batch fire or sequential we are referring to fueling not spark. Stock the ecu fires all 4 injectors on a bank at the same time. sequential is each cylinder individually. There is no desire to go back to batch. The only change for pimp to go sequential is injector wiring and a couple setting. Your holley is sequential and the wiring harness is matched. Your truck will no longer be batch fire once the holley is installed.
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Raymond_B said:
I wonder if you simply choose TFI in the Holley and just repin the injector harness? If it has the TFI option then it sounds like you do not have to do anything special on the ignition side.
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I know what we are referring to for batch vs sequential. The problem when going from one to the other is that the computer has to know when #1 is firing in order to do sequential and it uses the distributor to determine when that is. On a batch fire system it doesn't need to know that. Sequential uses a unique feature in the cam signal to determine when to fire the injectors; either a thicker or thinner section on the wheel in the distributor. Factory systems just revert back to batch it they lose cam sensor signal, but I'm not sure if that's what the Holley does or not. If it does I guess I'll just leave it alone.
 
oilwell1415 said:
I know what we are referring to for batch vs sequential. The problem when going from one to the other is that the computer has to know when #1 is firing in order to do sequential and it uses the distributor to determine when that is. On a batch fire system it doesn't need to know that. Sequential uses a unique feature in the cam signal to determine when to fire the injectors; either a thicker or thinner section on the wheel in the distributor. Factory systems just revert back to batch it they lose cam sensor signal, but I'm not sure if that's what the Holley does or not. If it does I guess I'll just leave it alone.
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I wouldn't get too hung up on the terminology, it's used pretty loosely. If the Holley supports TFI as the ignition option then you're good to go, but you will need to rewire the injector harness because as is it will fire all the injectors at once since they are all tied together.
 
Raymond_B said:
I wouldn't get too hung up on the terminology, it's used pretty loosely. If the Holley supports TFI as the ignition option then you're good to go, but you will need to rewire the injector harness because as is it will fire all the injectors at once since they are all tied together.
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The Holley comes with an all new wiring harness, so that's not an issue. That was one of the reasons I went with it.
 
Raymond_B said:
I wouldn't get too hung up on the terminology, it's used pretty loosely. If the Holley supports TFI as the ignition option then you're good to go, but you will need to rewire the injector harness because as is it will fire all the injectors at once since they are all tied together.
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I'm curious if it would actually work if you're setup for sequential and wired for batch.

When ECU is setup for batch, it expects to light off the injectors in two batches (1,4,5,8 and 2,3,6,7) twice per revolution, so the injector pulsewidths are adjusted accordingly. Meaning that the injector pulses are considerably smaller than in sequential since it fires them multiple times, and the dead time and opening time calculations are applied for every event.

When it's setup for sequential it expects to fire each injector every other revolution, but the injector pulses are larger (~4x), and there are a quarter as many dead time and opening time calculations.

So when you're wired for batch, but setup for sequential, it will still fire two batches of injectors (they're wired to the same outputs as 1 and 2 in sequential), but every other revolution per batch, with bigger pulsewidths.

To me, it seems you could tune it to work, but the same tune will not work for both.

Maybe I'll test that in the white truck, for the sake of knowledge.
 
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